We’re excited to release a new live podcast miniseries from Ceridian INSIGHTS 2023! William Tincup interviewed HR leaders on 2024 trends, HR tech impacts, Ceridian’s rebrand to Dayforce, and more. Hear global insights firsthand by listening to the full series here.
Episode 1: Innovating with Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion with Donnebra McClendon of Ceridian
In this featured episode, Donnebra McClendon, Global Head of Diversity at Ceridian (Dayforce), joins William to discuss the importance of DEI strategy and the challenges organizations face in implementing them, such as limited resources and lack of training.
Donnebra weighs in on the urgency of prioritizing DEI in order to effectively create inclusive workplaces that value diversity, which in turn drives innovation and growth.
Listen to the Full Series
There’s more where that came from. William speaks with an array of experts from every corner of the globe.
You can listen to it all right here.
Enjoy the podcast?
Thanks for tuning in to this special episode of CeridianINSIGHTS 2023 Podcast Mini Series. Of course, comments are always welcome. Interested in what Ceridian (Dayforce) has to offer? Check out their website.
Donnebra McClendon (She/Her)
An innovative thought leader and strategic business partner who has dedicated more than 17 years at Ceridian to cultivating consciously unbiased and intentionally inclusive leaders. A doctoral student in Strategic Leadership at Carolina University. Donnebra also established a non-profit organization, Leaders are Readers, supporting literacy in the Tampa Bay area.Follow
[00:00:00] William Tincup: Ladies and gentlemen, this is William Tincup, and you are listening to the Recruiting Daily podcast. We are podcasting live from INSIGHTS uh, the Dayforce Ceridian user conference, and I use the slash because Ceridian is becoming Dayforce. They’ve got the brand out. I think it becomes official in January, but it is, there’s just an electricity about this particular conference.
[00:00:29] William Tincup: I’ve been to Insights probably 12, 15 times, and this is the best one yet, and I love the fact that you’re rebranding. I love the font. So, I mean, I just love everything about it. So, Donnebra, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself?
[00:00:42] Donnebra McClendon: Absolutely. My name is Donnebra McClendon. I’m the Global Head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at the amazing Dayforce.
[00:00:50] William Tincup: You, if I think, if I remember correctly, you help both with uh, Dayforce, I’ll say Ceridian Dayforce. We’ll just use synonyms until it’s official. Until it’s [00:01:00] official. Yeah, Yeah. You help both internally, you help with the 9, 000 employees plus to make sure that we’re on the right path. But do you also kind of help with customers or kind of give some guidance there as well?
[00:01:12] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah, so I really do work closely with our customer partners on any questions that they have about building out their DEI strategies, some best practices, recommendations for, you know, making sure that their strategies are sustainable. Right. DEI is pretty new to a lot of organizations and sometimes HR professionals are given the responsibilities of taking on, you know, multiple tasks.
[00:01:36] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah, it’s a hot potato. Here you go. Good luck. Yeah. And for people… No training. No budget. For people who aren’t really familiar with that, it just, sometimes it can be a little bit overwhelming.
[00:01:47] William Tincup: 100%. Yeah. And what I’ve seen is sometimes people get promoted in that position and there’s no training. One hundred percent.
[00:01:54] William Tincup: It’s like, okay, you know, uh, tag, you’re it. Or, you know, like who’s around that we know that might even know a [00:02:00] little bit about the subject. Tag, you’re it. Now you have the position. There might not be a budget. There might not be a strategy. They’re not, and there’s no training. It’s, It’s like, Oh no, by the way, there’s no metrics.
[00:02:10] William Tincup: It’s like, good luck at doing your job.
[00:02:12] Donnebra McClendon: It is. Yeah. The top three, I think uh, concerns that I hear from customers are people, money, and resources. That’s their biggest constraints, specifically when we’re talking about how do I make DEI more pronounced in my organization? I don’t have the time, I don’t have the people, I don’t have the money, right?
[00:02:31] Donnebra McClendon: So, We talked to them about how to maximize their existing resources, how to galvanize those champions within the organization, and how to not think about DEI as something separate. If it really is… It’s part of what you do, if it’s in the heart of your organization, making your organization more inclusive and more diverse, then it doesn’t have to be separate, it’s everywhere.
[00:02:54] Donnebra McClendon: It’s being able to see where it is, amplify where it is, and then leverage those existing resources in those areas.
[00:02:59] William Tincup: [00:03:00] Last year when we talked, I felt like people were getting it, and it came out of a lot of pain, you know, from Me Too, Love is Love, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, etc. Like a lot of Really, really painful social movements that kind of coalesced into like, we actually have a problem, we should do something, check.
[00:03:18] William Tincup: And there’s some, there seemed like, at least, on an uptick, in the year, the end of the year, kind of feel like DEI is under attack.
[00:03:27] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah, it is, and it definitely feels like it’s under attack, and that’s because it is. Um, I think it comes down to prioritization for organizations. Right. Where do people prioritize this work?
[00:03:39] Donnebra McClendon: Um, And again, I think it’s because they see it as something nice to have, and when you’re talking about organizations who just may be struggling to keep the lights on um, programs like anything related to DEI automatically get cut. I saw a statistic a couple weeks ago that said people, about 65 percent of the people who took these roles on in the DEI space, you [00:04:00] know, two or three years ago, they’re having to do something different now, or they’re taking on additional responsibilities in order to keep their jobs within their organizations.
[00:04:08] Donnebra McClendon: And it does come down to are, are we really uh, as organizations, are we really going to be committed um, to, to following through with some of the promises that we made? Promises sound really great as soundbites, but are we really willing to do the work? And, And in a lot of cases, the answer is no.
[00:04:22] William Tincup: And the work is hard.
[00:04:23] William Tincup: Yeah. So, I know, I think the ruling in the United States around affirmative action and the uh, the college admissions thing as well it, it feels like we’re taking steps backwards.
[00:04:35] Donnebra McClendon: I think we are. We are. You know what I’m saying? I, I would have to agree with you. I think we are taking a step backwards. I think, but what it does is it pronounces that there’s so much work to be done.
[00:04:43] Donnebra McClendon: That’s right. Um, Cause as we, as we think about legislation and as we think about how can we integrate some best practices, we have to get to the root of the problem. I often, I often use a quote from Angela Davis, right? You have to disturb the root if you expect different fruit from the tree, right? So until we can get to the [00:05:00] real root of these systemic issues, we’ll never be able to change the mindset in order for us to really propel in this space.
[00:05:07] Donnebra McClendon: Um, How do we do that? We really have to start looking at our own selves, and then figure out how can we be true advocates and allies right, for the work that needs to be done. We’ve got generations and hundreds of years of work to do, like to repair, undo, right? In order for us to really, really grow and become better, better humans.
[00:05:26] William Tincup: I think it’s what, what, if there is a silver lining to this retrench, or going backwards, is we’re going to find out who is just, who is just making uh, Noise. Noise? Thank you. I was going to say something else, but yes, I’m glad you said noise. You know, It separates the pretenders. From the people that really, it’s in their heart and it’s, and it’s, and if that’s what it takes to separate that out like, I remember a lot of people, especially initially in the COVID um, or even, even back to Love’s Love, they’d start to go to [00:06:00] HBCUs the first time and it’s like, this is the first time they discovered that there was HBCUs, right?
[00:06:06] William Tincup: And I’m like, you know, this is a long term strategy. First of all, this isn’t a, you go to their college fair and then all of a sudden they’re like amazed that you’re, you’re there. Somehow they, they, they, they want to join your firm. Yeah. This is a long term investment with something like that.
[00:06:19] Donnebra McClendon: I laugh because I attended an HBCU, right?
[00:06:22] Donnebra McClendon: You know what I’m talking about. I can tell you nobody was knocking on our door. Like, I attended Bethune Cutman University, which is a small college down in Daytona Beach, and nobody was knocking on the doors looking for us. They just weren’t. Now, right around the corner was University of Central Florida.
[00:06:39] Donnebra McClendon: And in Orlando, and everybody was knocking on their doors. So my school has been in existence for over 112 years. We just had our Founders Day, and again, people didn’t even know that we were there. So yeah, we have to move beyond the, you know, the soundbites and what are we doing for social media, or what makes [00:07:00] us look good temporarily.
[00:07:02] Donnebra McClendon: Um, People were pouring funding into four HBCUs. Well, Guess what? There are over a hundred of us out there. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, And many of us never saw that. Many of our schools never saw that. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, so then you get to the root of the why.
[00:07:14] William Tincup: Well, We’re going to go to, we’re going to Morehouse.
[00:07:15] William Tincup: Yeah. Morehouse Bellman, Howard, right?
[00:07:18] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah, great. Done. That was it. Check. Check. Check it off. Um, Again um, so, so, little schools like mine, 2500 strong. Right. You know, Dr. Mary McLeod Bethune never had an idea that, you know, HBCUs would still be going on. I, I think we still need them very much so and I think organizations need to recognize that there’s plenty of talent out there we just have to broaden our scope of how we’re looking for talent.
[00:07:43] William Tincup: 100%. Yeah. 100%. And again, make the investment, make the long term investment, like build a part, a true partnership with, with a college like, and look, being in for the long haul. 100%.
[00:07:55] Donnebra McClendon: The ups to the downs. That’s one of the things that we do and I’m so proud of the work that we get to do at Sardinian [00:08:00] Day Force and that is…
[00:08:01] Donnebra McClendon: We invest where we really, really want to see the growth in those spaces. So we work closely with our HBCUs. We work closely internally. I think people forget that you don’t necessarily need to take your message, take your programs outside of your own organizations. Um, I, I don’t know if we’re going to get into this, but one of the programs…
[00:08:21] Donnebra McClendon: Yes, we should.
[00:08:21] William Tincup: No,
[00:08:22] William Tincup: No, you’ll just go there.
[00:08:23] Donnebra McClendon: One of the programs I’m super proud of is our Achieving Corporate Equity program, our ACE program. It is really designed for what we’re calling underrepresented minorities. Right. And oftentimes people think underrepresented minorities mean black, hispanic, or latino.
[00:08:34] Donnebra McClendon: Right, right, right. It’s not limited there, right? There’s so many people who can benefit. Women benefit. People of the LGBTQ2 plus community benefit. We open it up and we say, listen at, at Ceridian, if you feel… As if you are a minority amongst a larger group, this program is for you. We designed the program to amplify careers.
[00:08:57] Donnebra McClendon: We encourage things like executive sponsorships. [00:09:00] Our executives are brought in and they recognize that because people are often marginalized, they don’t get opportunities, our goal is to identify what barriers they have within our own company, and then we need to remove them. So we’re going into our third court right now.
[00:09:15] Donnebra McClendon: And we’ve had some amazing success stories out of there.
[00:09:17] William Tincup: So when you’re asked the difference uh, similarities between equity and equality what’s, what’s kind of your, your typical response?
[00:09:25] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah, very simple, right? Equity is really about giving people exactly what they need. Understanding that we all start off from a different perspective, different points right, in life, and there, there’s just some things that, Equality won’t solve.
[00:09:39] Donnebra McClendon: Right. Equality won’t solve at all, right? What we understand is that, you know, there are some areas where equality is absolutely critical. Right? You need equal work for equal pay. Right. But we absolutely have to understand that when we’re talking about creating equity, it means taking into consideration the totality of the person.
[00:09:55] Donnebra McClendon: Um, What they bring into the workplace, what they bring, because we tell [00:10:00] people all the time, bring your authentic selves to work, right? Oh, you don’t want that. You don’t want that. Are we prepared to support what that looks like? The answer is probably
[00:10:08] William Tincup: not. Probably not. Every time someone said that to me, I’m like…
[00:10:12] William Tincup: You don’t realize how dark my brain is. You don’t want the whole me there. Maybe 80%.
[00:10:18] Donnebra McClendon: We should be saying, bring your authentic work self to work. Your authentic professional work self to work. A few disclaimers there. But I think we have to, as an organization, we have to be able and to be prepared to support people.
[00:10:31] Donnebra McClendon: Right. Holistically on who they are and what they bring. And that requires, you know, creating these equitable spaces. Right. We understand that there are. Traumas, dramas, and stressors that people bring into the workplaces, that people like me who started off in historically black colleges may not have had an opportunity to meet with recruiters who are only looking for those Ivy League schools or even from the black colleges, the Morehouse, the Spellmans, and the Howards, right?
[00:10:57] Donnebra McClendon: We don’t talk about that. We don’t talk about that. I chose the school that [00:11:00] I chose to because of family legacy, right? I was third generation in that school. My daughter is now fourth generation there. So legacy was important to me. So recruiters don’t necessarily care about that. They look for what they do at Harvard.
[00:11:13] Donnebra McClendon: They do, right. so what, what, exactly. So, so, So what we need to do is be really diligent about creating equity within our own organizations, right? How do we teach people what success looks like? What are we looking for? And then how do we teach leaders how to be um, intentional about creating these workplaces of inclusion?
[00:11:31] William Tincup: So, I’ve seen a lot of my friends that work in DEI rebrand themselves. And uh, what we’ve seen is, either purposely or whatever as a reaction to some of this attack, is inclusion. So they’ve taken some of the other parts of that out, because, and I’ve talked to them about it, so I was like, why’d your title change?
[00:11:49] William Tincup: Like, What’s going on, man? And uh, and they’re like, it’s a defensible position. It is. No one can fight against inclusion. They can fight about other stuff, but they, you know, they [00:12:00] can’t fight inclusion. Inclusion is like, we want everybody, we want every customer, right? Yeah. We want everybody included, right?
[00:12:06] William Tincup: And it’s more of a defensible position. Now that, I think, first of all, it kind of kills me a little bit, kind of crushes my soul just a little bit. However, I kind of understand the logic. Do you see some of that?
[00:12:18] Donnebra McClendon: I absolutely do and I agree with you. I think it’s a defensible position. I think, but whenever you have to change the message, and maybe you do, you have to change the message to meet the people that you’re trying to meet.
[00:12:29] Donnebra McClendon: Right. Make sure that you don’t change the intent behind the work that we’re doing. 100%. Right? So, If you have to rebrand yourself as something different in order to draw the people in, do that. Right. But remember the reason why we’re here. Right. Right? And creating more diverse workplaces, maybe that makes people feel uncomfortable.
[00:12:47] Donnebra McClendon: And I think that’s because they, they, they, they lean heavily into their own ignorance of what diversity is. 100%. Right? 100%. Because in all aspects, we are all diverse. And we should encourage that. Diversity in thought, right? [00:13:00] Diversity in leadership, diversity in learning, right? Our own personal beliefs, things that our world views are diverse, that’s what’s going to make us more innovative and more creative.
[00:13:10] Donnebra McClendon: 100%.
[00:13:11] William Tincup: If everything’s the same, how do you get innovative?
[00:13:14] Donnebra McClendon: How do you innovate? Absolutely, right. so in order for us to really get to that place where we are taking the necessary action to build workplaces of inclusion, we have to be intentional about bringing in different people. Turns out. Absolutely.
[00:13:25] William Tincup: How do you keep a pulse on your, the employees and kind of what’s going on, what’s working, what’s not working, you know, programmatically, okay, we tried this, maybe that didn’t work, you know, which is a part of, to me, it’s a part of the experimentation too, you try some things, you roll out a program and you think, this is great, let’s do this deal, and it just, boop, doesn’t work, which is a part of it, right?
[00:13:49] William Tincup: And I saw early on with my friends within the DEI, That, that we’re afraid to experiment and I’ll tell them as a recovering marketer, I’m like, Hey man, this is just a game of [00:14:00] experimentation. Try some stuff. It doesn’t work out. Change. And they’re like, man, you don’t understand the pressure. I’m like, I don’t care about the pressure.
[00:14:07] William Tincup: Just try stuff.
[00:14:09] Donnebra McClendon: And you have to like, you have to be willing to do things differently, right? I’m 100 percent always open to recommendations, suggestions, and ideas. This is not Denibra equity and inclusion, right? Oh, you’re the D? I’m the D. I’m the D in the DEI. At least sometimes I think I am. Oh, that’s genius.
[00:14:25] Donnebra McClendon: But, But, it really does come down to are we giving people what they need? Right. And if you give people what they need, in order to do that, you have to ask them, you have to be willing to take the feedback, and to take the feedback honestly. I feel often I feel forward, right? And that is part of it. I think any good idea probably started from several bad ideas.
[00:14:47] Donnebra McClendon: Um, But we have to be willing to be brave and be courageous in that, in that space.
[00:14:50] William Tincup: It’s almost like if you’re not failing, you’re not trying. Absolutely. Right? So what is the what’s, what’s similar or different from the board and the rest of the executive team in terms [00:15:00] of what What they need from you, you know, in terms of reporting and things like that.
[00:15:04] William Tincup: You all publicly trade your company, so you got different pressures that I’m not super, super uh, involved in but, but I, but I understand that they’re going to have needs from you, either conversationally or otherwise. What is, is that similar or different than it was a couple of years ago? Like, what, What do they
[00:15:20] Donnebra McClendon: need from you?
[00:15:20] Donnebra McClendon: Adopting, adapting equity into the Ceridian core values really kind of help amplify the work that I get to do here. Right. Right? So, What that means is that, not only do we establish some, some key performance indicators, but we also establish real life goals that we share publicly. In our ESG report, we’re sharing these goals.
[00:15:39] Donnebra McClendon: We’re reporting on them, and we are holding each other accountable for those goals. So one of our goals is to achieve gender parity in the executive leadership suite. So, I’m working really closely with our recruitment team. How are things going? And even beyond that, we’re working closely with leaders who are doing the hiring.
[00:15:56] Donnebra McClendon: Um, We’ve taken it a step further and not further to say, Listen, not only are we [00:16:00] going to ask that you bring in these diverse slates in order for us to hit some of these goals, right? But, I want you to help me to identify trends where you’re finding or you’re getting resistance from people who are finding it really difficult to step outside of the box.
[00:16:13] Donnebra McClendon: So, It’s constantly communication, constant education, but then even more than that, it’s conversations. Right? So our board of directors, they’re asking, Hey, how are we looking? Are we monitoring this information? Are we monitoring who we’re bringing in? Are we doing our due diligence in setting a good example?
[00:16:31] Donnebra McClendon: And then, how do we help to cascade the importance of the message down to the rest of the organization?
[00:16:37] William Tincup: So…
[00:16:38] William Tincup: I’ve had uh, some of my friends that got, they gotten into di e i and, and uh, I had a call, this was probably about a month ago or so, and she was like, William, especially with some of the attacks on, on di mm. i, you know, she, she’s like, I don’t, I don’t, the business the, the C-suite I’m, I’m like fighting every day. It’s I’m, I’m, I feel [00:17:00] like I’m gonna lose my job, this, that and the other. And I said well, is it a part of your core values? And you’ve said this, I think, twice now, and I said, is it a part of your core values?
[00:17:09] William Tincup: And she goes, no. I said, start looking for a new job. Because you can’t change it. If it’s not a part of your core values, you can’t change it. And she was like, William, I can’t, I can’t move jobs, you know, this, that, and the other. I’m like, you’re not listening to me. You’re going to be forced out. Absolutely.
[00:17:25] William Tincup: So just, just get there first, get a good job where people
[00:17:29] Donnebra McClendon: care. Yeah. It has to be a part of who the company is. Right. Right. And if it’s not… They will find a way to eliminate it. 100%. Again, it becomes a nice to have, not a requirement. Yeah, a window dressing. 100%, right? It’s that, look what we did, right? But do they really stand firm behind that?
[00:17:47] Donnebra McClendon: If the company is unwavering in their commitment, then you don’t have to look for a new job. They’re unwavering in their commitment. DEI, I say this because it’s part of their DNA, right? I, I, again, I don’t, I don’t have a stand alone [00:18:00] position. I work with every department within the team. 10, 000, 200, and however many plus employee company, and it’s my responsibility to ensure that everyone understands that tying this into our core values is who we are.
[00:18:14] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah. Right? Nobody’s saying, Hey, we’re going to go get, you know, we’re going to get a new uh, CHRO, right? Maybe we should cut them because it’s not part of our core values. Absolutely not. It’s, it’s, it’s, It’s a stable position within the organization. Our leaders believe in the work that we get to do, and I, and we stand firm in that and, and for those who have companies that don’t embed it into their core values, I think you gave me the right warning.
[00:18:37] Donnebra McClendon: Yeah, Yeah. Take your talent, do the LeBron James, take your talent to South Beach.
[00:18:42] William Tincup: It’s,
[00:18:42] William Tincup: It’s funny, I was, I was thinking as we were talking about window dressing, Kanye has a song where he talks about putting me in the front of the store when black folks come in. Yeah. It’s like, that’s window dressing.
[00:18:50] William Tincup: Window dressing. That’s all that is, is window dressing, and you can call it a lot of different things, but, um. the advice that you would give someone [00:19:00] that has their first DEI job, either a battlefield promotion or they’re really passionate and they want to get into the bit, what would be the advice that you’d give, even your younger self, what would that be?
[00:19:12] Donnebra McClendon: Build community. Find people in this space who you can lean on to build that, start building that network and that community. Um, This work is not easy. Um, And it will require you to really, really think differently about who you are, how you’re going to represent yourself, your company. You have to be in it for the long haul, I tell people pack a lunch, right?
[00:19:35] Donnebra McClendon: Right? And when you’re thinking about building sustainable plans, start small. But my… Right? Start small but mighty. We often jump into this space. I know I did. I jumped into this with some really laughty ideas. I’m going to change the world like overnight. I learned real quick. That was not, That was not sustainable.
[00:19:57] Donnebra McClendon: Right? Right? So you pack a lunch, [00:20:00] prepare yourself and build that community. You’re going to need your network.
[00:20:02] William Tincup: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I gotta ask you the favorite, your favorite part of Insights
[00:20:07] Donnebra McClendon: this year. Oh my gosh. First of all, the Expo Hall is It’s amazing. I know, right? One of the clients has this super fantastic pink shoe.
[00:20:16] Donnebra McClendon: If you haven’t seen the pink, it’s all over my, it’s all over my LinkedIn. The pink shoe is my favorite spot now. Oh, I gotta, I gotta do that. I feel like if people are looking for me at Insights, you will find me at the pink shoe. Just totally hanging out. I’ve got like 50 million selfies. I’m pretty sure my iCloud is gonna be pretty full real soon.
[00:20:31] Donnebra McClendon: I’m gonna have to buy some extra storage. It’s the people though. I absolutely love the energy. I heard you say that this Um, I’m a lifer at 3DN so I’ve got 20 years and Insights is my favorite, favorite event of the year. I love the people, I love the energy, I talk to customers all the time. I’m based out of Tampa, so I don’t get a chance to see so many people all the time, but seeing the people that I work with every single day, it’s the energy.
[00:20:56] Donnebra McClendon: I absolutely love it. I want to take it on
[00:20:59] William Tincup: the road. [00:21:00] Oh, listen. I want to go to London. I want to go to South Africa.
[00:21:03] Donnebra McClendon: A couple years ago, we did the world tour, and that was amazing. I want to do that.
[00:21:07] William Tincup: I’m in. I want to do that, especially with customers. Just doing customers and product. Yeah. And doing, it doesn’t have to be this big, but just doing it around the world.
[00:21:15] Donnebra McClendon: I’ve met some amazing customers. I mean, Literally, listen to their stories um, I tell people, I’ve had several jobs in Ceridian’s organization, so I know every phase of the business, but being at Insights, feeling the energy from the customers, watching their excitement, being on the Vegas show and seeing the Ceridian brand, the Dayforce brand um, in the big lights, it really does make you proud.
[00:21:39] Donnebra McClendon: This is the company that I get to work for, and it’s truly amazing. It’s a great feeling I understand, you know, who we are as a core organization, and it just, It gets me super excited to come back every year and to share that enthusiasm with our customers.
[00:21:56] William Tincup: Drops mike, walks off stage.
[00:21:57] Donnebra McClendon: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
[00:21:59] William Tincup: Thank you so much for [00:22:00] coming on.
[00:22:00] Donnebra McClendon: Thank you for having me.
[00:22:01] William Tincup: Absolutely. Absolutely. And thanks for everyone for listening. Until next time.
William is the President & Editor-at-Large of RecruitingDaily. At the intersection of HR and technology, he’s a writer, speaker, advisor, consultant, investor, storyteller & teacher. He's been writing about HR and Recruiting related issues for longer than he cares to disclose. William serves on the Board of Advisors / Board of Directors for 20+ HR technology startups. William is a graduate of the University of Alabama at Birmingham with a BA in Art History. He also earned an MA in American Indian Studies from the University of Arizona and an MBA from Case Western Reserve University.