Storytelling About hackajob With Mark Chaffey

William Tincup: [00:00:00] This is William Tincup and you’re listening to the Use Case Podcast. Today, we have Mark on from Hackajob and we’ll be learning about the business case or use case that prospects and customers make for the purchase of Hackajob. Why don’t we learn about Hackajob? Mark, would you do us a favor and introduce both yourself and Hackajob?

Mark Chaffey: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me on the show, William. So my name is Mark. I’m one of the co founders and the CEO at Hackajob, and I’ve spent the last Eight years of my life now, obsessing [00:01:00] over the problem of how do companies hire technical talent at scale? So a brief introduction to HackerJob, every business in the world is now a technology company.

Technology has evolved from a standalone industry, which obviously it still is, to now a function within every industry. It doesn’t matter if you’re in defense and space, retail, e commerce, you’re going to need to build technology teams. And that means that the demand for technical talent is far outweighing the supply.

Even with all of the layoffs of the last 12 to 18 months, companies find it incredibly challenging to find, engage, and hire technical talent. And that’s where HackerJob comes in. We have designed a full stack talent solution. that has several different products to improve every part of the hiring process.

It starts with a two sided marketplace where we technically screen every candidate on the way in using technology that we’ve built. And if [00:02:00] the candidate passes that screening process they are visible in our marketplace for a period of four weeks. And at that point we flipped the model on its head.

So rather than the candidate applying to the job, the company actually applies to the engineer. And this creates a really magical candidate experience because candidates only get pitched by companies that meet their salary expectation, visa status location preferences, tech stack, et cetera. Which means companies receive an 85% response rate to engineers that they message through the HackerJob marketplace.

So far more effective use of internal recruiter’s time. And then we layer the marketplace with an employer brand solution, a D& I solution, and a talent assessments product that ends up improving every part of the hiring funnel for organizations. And that is a brief intro to myself and HackerJob.

William Tincup: I love it.

I love it. So the screening process, let’s start with that. As you’re screening talent, are you are you skills testing and and things like that? What’s, take [00:03:00] us into the screen without revealing any of the secret sauce, right? But but what are you doing when you screen technical talent?

Mark Chaffey: Yeah, absolutely. There’s three different levels of screening that a user will go through. The first is technical screening. So we have built a cloud based programming environment that enables us to assess a candidate’s proficiency in any programming language, tool, framework, architecture type, etc.

And that’s all automated using the technology that we’ve built. A candidate can also link their open source projects from places like GitHub and Bitbucket. And again, we analyze that all automatically using the technology we built. And the idea behind that part of the process is to try and remove the noise from a technical person’s CV.

I don’t know how many engineering CVs you’ve reviewed over your time, William, but typically they are stuffed full of a thousand different keywords of every single technology that a candidate has touched in their career. Whereas really what the hiring manager cares about is, what are you good at and what do you want to do?[00:04:00]

And that’s what we really try and get to through the technical part of the screening process. The second part we call our job fit screen, and this is really just about capturing structured data around what a candidate is looking for. So as they go through this process, we’ll capture their salary expectations, visa status, seniority, tech stack, work location preferences, etc.

And that just means that, as I touched on earlier, the candidate experience is so superior to any other solution because they’re only getting really relevant opportunities presented to them. And then the final one, we’re much earlier in exploring, but we’re trying to identify, can we work out the type of organization an engineer is likely to be more successful in than others?

So this is a variation of some form of culture assessment. We’re very early in exploring this right now, but trying to understand, as we think about the matching process between an engineer and a company, how can we prioritize the right type of companies for the engineer? [00:05:00]

William Tincup: To either your the employers that you work with or the candidates, do you see a shift towards project as opposed to full time employment?

I don’t want to, I don’t want to guide the witness, but I’m just wondering what is the market want right now?

Mark Chaffey: It’s a fascinating question because for so long there’s been obviously many McKinsey reports, et cetera, around the gig economy and everyone moving to freelance, et cetera.

We’ve always played in the permanent space both here in the UK and in the US and continue to play in the permanent space. So we don’t really do any freelance contract project work. We are primarily working with in house recruiters that are responsible for scaling. Permanent tech teams. I do think there is still a demand for freelance talent.

It’s typically in a slightly different part of the organization. It’s often more hiring manager led. And there are other products out there that very much focus just on that one area. But from what we see companies that are going through these big digital transformation programs want that talent in house full [00:06:00] time, working for that organization.

And there’s a lot of demand for it.

William Tincup: So how do companies, the employer side, how do they think of you? I hate software categories, by the way, and y’all are a blend of services and software. So I can see them using all kinds of different words to describe you. All good words.

Mark but where do they, where does the budget come from?

Mark Chaffey: Yeah, totally. And I definitely hear you in the early days. I’d be like, we’re somewhere between the staffing agency and a job board, but not really either of those two things. So we’re a direct sourcing platform. The company generally finds the budget where they are trying to reduce staffing agency spend.

So our business model is an annual subscription that ends up making the cost per hire around three to four thousand pounds slightly more USD and that is typically about 75% reduction in what they are spending on staffing agencies. So if I’m a director of talent acquisition, one of my top three KPIs I’m going to be measured on is my [00:07:00] direct fill rate.

And platforms like LinkedIn and Indeed have been wonderful for increasing my direct fill rate in non tech roles, but actually where typically the highest use of staffing agency usage is still within technology. So we will then be partnering both with the Director of Talent Acquisition and often the CTO to reduce that staffing agency spend.

Move it to a subscription platform like ours where the cost per hire is significantly cheaper.

William Tincup: Are you working with more as you roll this out? Are you working with more recruiters or are you working more directly with hiring managers?

Mark Chaffey: Great question. So typically it’s the internal recruitment function.

Okay. That are using it. So You know, most organizations that we work with will probably have a dedicated technical recruitment function, and it’s typically those people that are using the products and why they love the product so much is our platform enables them to spend more time doing what they’re great at, which is interviewing candidates, getting candidates through the recruitment process, and less time just aimlessly sending out hundreds [00:08:00] and hundreds of messages LinkedIn.

Interestingly enough, I was in just moved to New York and I was in New York last week and I was with one of our big US customers and they’re seeing a lot of success by giving hiring managers our platform. And the logic there is that the engagement rate is so high from the candidates. It’s effectively enables that team to just have the hiring managers logging in daily and then booking in effectively the first technical interview straight away.

So there is some use cases for hiring managers, but predominantly it’s internal talent people.

William Tincup: People know that kind of the traditional hiring process source talent and you market to the talent and you somehow get them to apply to a job. They get into ATS. Okay. You go to offer letter and then and then the person starts.

Where do you interact with people’s really their technology stack, especially their TA or recruiting technology stack, because the application is through you. I’m assuming they offer letters through you, but where does that data, where does that data need to, or what are your employers telling you that [00:09:00] data needs to also reside?

Mark Chaffey: Yeah. Great question. So we’re at the start of the journey, so companies will be using us for employer branding and attraction, and then also for direct sourcing. So a typical use case is a company will, or an internal recruiter will log into HackerJob to do their sourcing of talent. They will send interview requests to candidates that they’d like the look of.

Once a candidate has accepted their request, at that point, we upload the candidate to the applicant tracking system, and it is a bi directional integration. So anytime a candidate is then updated in the applicant tracking system, they’re also updated in HackerJaw. And that’s really important for all of our machine learning models, because We don’t just get the signal that a company wants to interview this candidate.

We actually find out did the company hire that candidate? Was the candidate unsuccessful? Or did the candidate withdraw? Which means our recommendations can get better and better over time. And I’ll give you a sneak peek exclusive, William, because I actually wanted to share this on LinkedIn today, but our product team told me I had to wait one [00:10:00] more week.

We have integrations going live with Workday and SuccessFactors on September the 4th. First, which are our two biggest requests for applicant tracking systems. So we’re very excited to get both of those live.

William Tincup: Oh, that’s fantastic. First of all, congratulations. Not easy. Then of course you’re going to be pulled into Oracle.

As well, because, the, there’s, those are the big three but you got two of them you’ll have two of them knocked out by September, which is really fascinating. The candidates what I love about you flipping the model and the companies trying to attract the candidates in a way that, that you want them to again, I, I like that, and I like that for technical talent in particular.

And I like that you’re testing and assessing and again, not everybody gets accepted. Not everybody’s on the platform, which again, I think is good. Is there any cross, I don’t know, like I’m thinking about community GitHub or Stack Overflow, how they’ve created. A tech [00:11:00] community within that then interacts with each other regardless of jobs and even being hired they give it to each other, advice, et cetera.

Do you either have any of that now or do you see that as part of your future?

Mark Chaffey: Yeah, absolutely. There’s two elements of the business today where that happens. So one, we’ve effectively created a media company. Alongside HackerJob called DevLab DevLab powered by HackerJob. And this is often where our customers will be promoting their technical content.

So it’s a lot of blogs and podcasts and events and bits and pieces like this. Which is amazing for our customers because it’s a great employer branding channel for the more soft sell, get somebody really excited about. The technology that you’re working on inside an organization like CarMax or S& P Global.

But then we also do physical real world events with these people. So two weeks ago, we hosted our annual conference where over a thousand engineers got together in person and attended two days of talks and presentations from. Various industry people, [00:12:00] customers, et cetera. So there’s a whole media business to the company, which facilitates that community on the candidate side.

And then secondly, we’re much earlier in this part of the journey, but the same technology that we use to assess candidates, we’re also turning into a learning platform. So something that’s really interesting about engineers is that technology moves so quickly. There’s always a new programming language, framework, tool that they want to play around with.

And what we’ve created is a structured, practical environment where they can play around with those technologies. So they don’t need to listen to a YouTube video or more classroom based learning. Instead they can actually practically go away and play around with a language like Go. That’s rising in popularity using the product and there’s hope over time that we might even be able to make that peer to peer and facilitate peer to peer learning on the platform.

Absolutely some stuff we’re doing today and definitely ambitions to do more of that in the future.

William Tincup: I love that. So are you bumping into anybody because the model is so unique? [00:13:00] Are you, I’m wondering, the question is about displacement. And I advise a lot of startups and I get this question pretty much every day.

And it’s about competition. And a lot of software, y’all are a mix of software and services. So it’s a little bit different for y’all, but a lot of software firms, they think that another software company, they’ll look around, if it’s Seacout, they’ll think it’s HireEasy. You know what I’m saying?

Like they’ll look at another software company, if it’s Greenhouse, they’ll think it’s pick somebody like Lever or something like that. They’ll pick another kind of something that looks similar to them. And I always come back with kind of a similar answer. I’m like, it’s actually the status quo.

It’s people just doing stuff the same way that they’ve done it always and they just don’t want change. It’s your biggest competitors, so that’s what you have to get over and and so what are you finding when you’re talking to people and rerouting their minds to something different to doing it differently than they’ve done it before?

Are you finding that you got to pull them away from [00:14:00] another something that’s similar or is it’s just, we’re going to take. As you said earlier, we’re going to take money staffing budget. You don’t necessarily need to think of us as a staffing firm, but that’s where the budget is going to come from. Sorry, I interrupted.

Mark Chaffey: No, not at all. I think you’ve put it so well. And we did our Series B fundraiser earlier this year and competition came up a lot because it is a noisy space. And I wish I had your answer to be honest, because I think it’s slightly better than mine. But how I think about competition is three different ways.

It’s where is our customer spending money? And we’re taking money. Where are our users spending time? And we’re taking time. And what other products out there are trying to do those two things as well. So where we’re taking budget, it’s very clearly staffing agencies. We are seeing some use cases where once we’ve reached a certain scale inside a company, they’ll actually take some budget from their LinkedIn agreement and give it to us.

Which is really interesting. Typically that’s in organizations where the percentage of tech hiring [00:15:00] is, a significant percent. So you think about IT consultancies as a good example. But generally speaking, we’re displacing staffing agencies from a budget perspective. From a time perspective, where are our users spending time before they buy a hacker job?

It’s LinkedIn. Internal recruiters live on LinkedIn, and the frustration they have is that they have to send hundreds and hundreds of messages to get replies. A lot of the LinkedIn, oh, go for it, sorry.

William Tincup: It’s such a horrible waste of time because the tech talent. This is years ago, but I don’t think much has changed.

A friend of mine who’s an engineer, a software engineer would say, Hey, I have a, it’s a pop up profile. So when I’m actually frustrated with my job or looking for a job, I’ll pop up my LinkedIn profile. I’ll get a flood of email or in mail or messages or whatever. And then I’ll roll it down. I’ll, I won’t cancel, I’ll just make, I’ll make it inactive to, I’ve dealt with enough technical talent to know, [00:16:00] they’re bombarded.

It’s just insane. And I like LinkedIn, don’t get me wrong, I’ve been a member for 20 years. So it’s not that I hate LinkedIn. I just, for this particular use case, I just don’t think that it’s effective from a spending perspective.

Mark Chaffey: I think that’s the key word is effective. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

And one of the other big challenges on LinkedIn is that it’s not built for engineers. So many of the profiles are bare bones, you don’t get the information that you actually need. A lot of the people that would be really relevant for your roles don’t even come back in your search results because LinkedIn doesn’t know the technology stack they’re working with.

It is, there was definitely a big opportunity to displace LinkedIn with vertical solutions. And I’m with you. I’m a massive LinkedIn user. I use LinkedIn every single day. It’s the tablet is guaranteed to be open pretty much all day for me. I’m a big LinkedIn fan, but I think for the internal recruiters there were just more effective channels.

And I think we’ve built one of the most effective channels for them to find. New talent. That’s, so displacing staffing agencies, typically from a budget [00:17:00] perspective, LinkedIn, typically from a time perspective, and then, yeah, the tools that, we are competing against, if you think about, I don’t think they’re similar, but they’re solving the similar problem.

You mentioned Seakout would absolutely be one of those products that have got really good penetration in the US. I think Seakout suffer from a similar problem that LinkedIn have, which is, They do really rich search, so you get a far better search experience on Seekout. But these candidates haven’t opted in to Seekout.

You don’t really know if they’re looking for a job or not. So your engagement rate is still going to be relatively low compared to, what you can achieve on HackerJob. And obviously you’ve got HireEasy in that space as well. There are obviously other direct sourcing tools out there, but I don’t think there are many that have taken this kind of reverse marketplace approach.

That leads to that 85% response rate we’re able to provide for internal recruiters.

William Tincup: I love it. Let’s do a couple buy side things real quick. What are questions that prospects should ask you and your team, your sales team, your marketing team, anybody that’s out [00:18:00] there, like again, you’re a platypus, which is a, comp is a compliment, by the way.

It’s absolutely a compliment because you’re solving something very uniquely. But in that, They might not have the buying questions. They might not have the literacy yet to ask you sophisticated questions. So what, if you could draft those or maybe a magic wand, what would those questions be?

Mark Chaffey: Yeah, this is a brilliant question. And also I love the platypus description. I’m going to find a platypus emoji and put that everywhere now. So I think there’s a couple of different things that if I was a prospect looking at hacker job, I’d be wanting to understand. One is I’d want to understand the talent fit.

Yeah. Ultimately, we’re only as good as the candidates we have on our platform. And therefore, I’d want to understand what types of engineers and technical people, because it’s not all software engineering, we do stuff in data, DevOps, cloud, security, etc. What’s the seniority of those people, what’s the location those different bits and pieces.

I definitely want to really deeply [00:19:00] understand the talent. Community, the talent makeup and what that looks like. And we do actually offer customers a 30 day trial to figure that out because ultimately we only want companies to sign up that are a good fit for us, and they’re gonna use us for the next five years.

So that’s definitely one thing that I’d want to work with them on. They should want to work with us on, I think the budget sign off process in this environment is got a lot more challenging for organizations. And because we are a platypus because we are a slightly unique proposition and we are an annual subscription model building that business case together is very valuable.

Often what we find when an internal recruitment function has to go and sell this internally to the finance team, the procurement team, or whatever, because it’s not necessarily easy to place us it can, pose some challenges there. So really getting us bought into the procurement process I think is key and building that business case.

And the final one we’ve touched on, but if I was a… Director of Talent Acquisition, I only buy tools that integrate with my applicant tracking system and my other systems. [00:20:00] I think there is such a plethora of technology out there right now. And actually, when you speak to customers, one of the biggest problems isn’t buying technology, it’s enabling that team to actually use the technology that they’ve bought.

And we spend a lot of time thinking about that. And I see it in our own organization. We’ve bought some brilliant software products that just nobody uses because we haven’t done a good enough job enabling them. I think that integration is one great way to really maximize enablement.

Because it makes the user’s job a lot more easy and remove any admin. So I think they’re the three pillars I’d be looking at. I’d be looking at one, making sure there’s a really strong talent fit. And we’ve got a 30 day trial to help customers figure that out. Two, really understanding the business case and how are we going to generate.

And then three, really going deep on integrations and workflows and making sure that this is going to be more effective for the internal recruitment team.

William Tincup: Okay, so when you get to show Hack a Job to someone for the first time, what’s your favorite part? I say [00:21:00] demo, that’s not really the bit, but you get to show people behind the veil how you work, what you do, the outcomes, etc.

What’s your favorite part?

Mark Chaffey: Can I choose two? Is that okay? Yeah, of course. When I demo the product and I still do the odd demo what I like to do is I will get a prospect job, a live job that they’ve posted on their career site, and I’ll add it to our platform and I’ll show, I’ll do it in real time.

I’ll say, this is the job. We’re gonna add it together now, and we’re gonna show you in real time how many candidates are a match for this job. And we’re gonna add in all the data, your salary, your location, your visa, your tech stack, et cetera. And it’ll pull a list of 180 matches. And I’m gonna click on one of those matches blindly.

Not knowing what that candidate is, we’re going to do it in real time with them, and we will review that profile together. And I’ll say, what do you think of this candidate? And seven or eight times out of 10, they’ll say, yeah, I’d like to speak to that candidate. And I’ll say if you hit this interview button here, within 48 hours, 85% likelihood that candidate has [00:22:00] replied and booked in a time to speak with you.

Is there another product that you could do that with? Generally, the answer is no. And that is a great way to get someone hooked because you have shown them value very quickly. So that’d be the first part. The second part is our new module that we’ve just rolled out all around diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is obviously such a hot topic in our space.

And we collect opt in data across ethnicity, gender, neurodiversity, disability, sexuality, veteran status, and if they need reasonable adjustments in the interview process for about 80% of our users. And then we’re able to play back the customer’s hiring funnel broken down by those demographics, and we can see at what stage do they have a higher dropout rate of female engineers versus male engineers.

And what’s more, every time a candidate drops out or declines to interview at a company, they have to give a reason why. So a company can start learning why black female engineers drop out at a higher rate than white male engineers. [00:23:00] Or why at the face-to-face interview stage, there’s a higher dropout? Is it because it’s an all white male panel?

For instance, and what we’re finding from speaking to customers is they just do not have access to this data anywhere. So that is another very powerful part of the product that I always enjoy showing or discussing.

William Tincup: Mark, dumb question alert, but do we get that data also for the employers? Do we get it from candidates?

Like when they drop out, but do what I’m seeking for is bad hiring managers. That’s what I’m looking for, is how to identify, do we find out any of the data from their perspective as well about candidates? Yes.

Mark Chaffey: There’s two, two kind of elements we do here. One is very descriptive. So each time a candidate is rejected through HackerJob, you have to collect, we collect a structured reason why.

All right. There’s eight different reasons. And again, that then. Feeds are machine learning matching. That means the recommendations can get better over

William Tincup: time. Is that communicated to the candidate in some way? Is there any, is is there, is that not… Not raw, but is that [00:24:00] feedback shared with the candidate?

I’m thinking about the candidate experience right now in particular cause they might tell you, okay, it’s just they’re just not up to date with what we need. They’re just not quite there. And we can’t, right now we can’t spend the time, money and energy in training them up.

Dude, how does a candidate get that without, how do they get that feedback without being completely offended or do they get that feedback? Yeah,

Mark Chaffey: it’s one of the tricky things, right? You’ve always got to think about how do you manage comms and especially given you work with larger enterprise organizations that are very selective on what comms we can do.

Because they have to send a message every time they make a candidate unsuccessful. So they have to provide some input. They don’t, that message could be generic. It could be specific. It’s up to them. So we are empowering the users to take that decision. And it is also important for us because we want to get accurate unsuccessful data from the customer because that’s going to make our matching more accurate and better over time.

So it is a balancing act to

William Tincup: get that right. Brilliant. All right. Last [00:25:00] thing, and it’s your favorite or your most recent customer story without naming the customer or the brand, but just something that happened that you use Hack a Job and you’re like, Oh, that’s cool. That’s why we created the company.

Yeah,

Mark Chaffey: there’s a couple. So like I said, I’ve just moved to the U S. And I’m very much enjoying living in New York and leaning in heavily to U. S. culture. And this isn’t really going to be like the emotive answer you’re looking for, but I think it speaks to me as a human. So I’m a big sports fan and and so I was in rugby so football for me, big man, United fan

William Tincup: We’re brothers from another mother.

I could, I’ve been following the United since 92, so

Mark Chaffey: I love it, but I’m actually named after Mark Qs. So you’ll be familiar with him. And my brother’s named the Ryan Kids, so yeah, it, of course, it runs deep in our family. Oh yeah. And the worst thing about, the worst thing about the US is the fact that you guys call it soccer.

Like that. Really?

William Tincup: Oh, no, I don’t. No. It’s football. . You use [00:26:00] your foot. With the ball that’s why it’s football. And don’t get me wrong. I went to the University of Alabama for undergrad. So I love college football, but no I played soccer growing up. So I get it, but no, I’ve been following international football and United is my team.

Like I literally could have a tattoo. I’ve been to Old Trafford probably almost a hundred times. I

Mark Chaffey: love it. I love it. I do still have two season tickets, so often anymore. But next time we’re in the UK, we’re going to Old Trafford together. Oh,

William Tincup: yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. I interrupted you.

I’m sorry. So you’re getting into the, you’re getting into sports?

Mark Chaffey: Getting into sports. So my American sport of choice is basketball. We’ve gotten into basketball. And so I was fortunate enough to be at Madison Square Garden for the New York Knicks Miami Heat playoff game. The one that the Knicks won. And I’m telling this story because one of the major sponsors of the NBA, who shall not be named I saw was sponsoring this event and I was like sponsoring the NBA.

I was like, wow, that’s cool. I never even heard of this company. It’s a US [00:27:00] business. And I was actually there with Brett, one of our guys. And I said, Brett, how cool would it be if that company used HackerJob? This is amazing. I’m getting into basketball. And Brett went away, and obviously wanting to impress.

A couple of weeks later, I saw them pop up in our sales force. I was like, Oh, they’re now an opportunity. And they just signed up with us two weeks ago. Which is our largest U S customer so far in terms of employee size, a 50, 000 person organization. And we’re supporting them all across the U S with their tech hiring.

So that was definitely a very sweet moment recently.

William Tincup: I was this close a couple of years back. To writing a book with a an Argentinian called Finding Messi and the bit was, is looking through a sports basically a football club, we could use Barcelona if we wanted or United and looking at HR, the entire spectrum of HR, recruiting and HR is all done at a football club.

So there’s sourcing, there’s training, there’s, compensation, like all the stuff that we have in our [00:28:00] brains around all the TA stuff, but also once they become employees, all the HR stuff, that’s all done at a football club. It might not be done well,

but at Liverpool and city, but it’s one of those deals that you can actually look at talent acquisition and HR through the football lens. And and see fascinating things. So I’m glad that we’re already together. We’re already connected. Totally.

Mark Chaffey: William, if you ever want to write that book, you’ve got a co author in me.

I would I would love to study HR and talent acquisition. And unfortunately our not so friends over at the Plymouth City have done a much better job than us in talent acquisition over the last five years.

William Tincup: And you know what? But that’s good because it motivates us. And we’ve done we’ve had a, we’ve had a, I love our manager.

I absolutely love our manager. I think we finally found somebody after Xerox to step in and actually really command a team. I’m excited. I

Mark Chaffey: absolutely agree. [00:29:00] I absolutely agree. Yeah. It’s going to be it’s definitely going to be an exciting season. And I think that he’s bringing back that club first culture, no player is bigger than the club.

And I think that he’s made some big, brave decisions, which you’ve got to commend him for. So yeah, I’m very excited for the season ahead.

William Tincup: And again, that’s what you do in HR. What’s fascinating about that is you have to make brave decisions about talent. Again, it’s talent. You know what? Yeah. Anyhow, we could have an entire podcast about United, but we’re not going to, there’s some great ones out there.

Anyhow. Mark, thank you so much. I know how busy you are. Thank you for carving out time for us.

Mark Chaffey: William, this has been a pleasure and definitely one of the more enjoyable podcasts I have done. So thank

William Tincup: you so much. Absolutely. And thanks for everyone listening. Until next time. Thanks. [00:30:00]