Combating Workplace Bias With Performance Reviews With Ivori Johnson of ChartHop

In this episode of the Recruiting Daily Podcast, Ivori Johnson, who leads diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging at ChartHop. She discusses how performance reviews can help combat workplace bias.

Johnson explains that biases can lead managers to favor certain employees over others, which can ultimately affect their performance evaluations. She suggests creating a process to eliminate biases as much as possible and introducing mechanisms to make managers aware of their workplace biases and be more objective in their evaluations. The conversation also touches on the importance of standardized interviews in reducing bias during the recruitment process.

Workplace bias is a prevalent issue that can affect employee performance evaluations. In this podcast, Ivory Johnson shares insights on how performance reviews can be used to combat workplace bias. She suggests creating a process that eliminates biases as much as possible and introducing mechanisms to make managers aware of their biases and be more objective in their evaluations. Additionally, the conversation highlights the importance of standardized interviews in reducing bias during the recruitment process. By taking people through similar interview processes and asking similar questions, companies can reduce bias and promote fairness.

Listening Time: 33 minutes

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Ivori Johnson
Head of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging ChartHop

Former Hampton University and Penn State alum, Ivori Johnson (she/her) is recognized for her work in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging space. She identifies as a masculine presenting Black queer woman and a bonus mom!

Ivori advocates for equity, fairness and representation in the tech industry. She breaks down barriers that does not support inclusion hiring, retention, inclusion, fairness and equity.

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ChartHop – Combating Workplace Bias With Performance Reviews With Ivori Johnson

William Tincup: [00:00:00] Ladies and gentlemen, this is William Tincup and you are listening to Recruiting Daily Podcasts. Today we have Ivory on chart hop, and our topic today is combating workplace vi bias with performance reviews. So we’re just gonna jump right into it. Ivory, would you do us a favor and introduce both yourself and chart hop?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah. Well thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here and Jess. Sure. Um, share some my expertise on this. Um, but yeah, my name is Ivory [00:01:00] Johnson Ri her and I lead all of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging at Chart Hop. Um, in chart hop. We are a people analytics organization that brings all of your people data into one place so that you can see all the insights and be able to, um, action it in a very insightful.

William Tincup: Well, fantastic. So, okay, let’s, let’s talk a little bit about combating workplace bias with performance reviews. So this is a, this is something I haven’t tackled. So this is kinda interesting because we’re gonna talk about bias, but we’re also gonna be talking about kind an instrument performance reviews that have been around for a while, uh, more than a day or so.

Mm-hmm. So, uh, where would you like to start?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, um, I can, I can chat a little bit about like what. Within this process even looks like, if that’s helpful. Yeah,

William Tincup: I think that would be good. Let’s, let’s do a little backdrop. Yeah, sure. Yeah,

Ivori Johnson: yeah, yeah. So, um, bias in general is really where we are in favor of one thing, personal group, just compared to another, [00:02:00] and it’s usually in an unfair way.

Um, so during like a performance process, What usually happens is, um, there’s managers, they go into the process, they may have favorites, awards one person over another, or maybe have that better connection to one person over another. So then you see one person’s performance amplified over others. Um, additionally, you know, if, if I am.

If I’m a peer and I’m close to, if I’m close to someone and maybe I have a, a connection with them, maybe we went to the same school. Yeah. Um, or we’re from the same area. I have a bias. So I think you have to really be able to create a process where these biases are eliminated from the process as much as possible, but you’re also introducing, um, mechanisms in place so that way folks that maybe do have these biases are aware and they can begin to be more objective in the.


William Tincup: interesting since a lot of the biases that we’re talking about, uh, we see in recruiting [00:03:00] too, right? So we see on the front end in talent acquisition and, and just to get into the organization. And then obviously we see it in internal mobility as well. Kind of, it, it resurfaces again there. What’s nice about this particular conversation is we’re talking about okay, to.

To promote someone which performance reviews. Um, it’s a mechanism for people to then, it’s like any good grades in, in college or whatever. It’s a way to then promote someone. And those biases, if, if not kind of, uh, managed or, uh, stomped out in recruiting, they resurface in performance. Yeah. Um, and one of the things I’ve, I’ve, I think.

Probably in the last two years we’ve talked a little bit more about than, than I’ve ever, uh, thought talked about these standardized interviews is one of the mechanism. There’s many, but one of the mechanisms sit in and say, okay, let’s get away from everybody interviews differently. And everybody interviews is different questions.

Let’s take people through [00:04:00] very similar interview processes and when we interview, let’s take people through similar, if not the same standardized interview questions. Um, how do we, how do we, I mean, that might not be a perfect kind of a segue over to performance rules, but how do we, how do we, uh, okay. If we identify the biases, and again, training.

Key to then help people understand kind of the people. Because you know, you and I both know, we walk around and bump into people and they’re like, I don’t have any biases. Like, ah, astel. Yeah. Everybody has biases, right? So, um, how do we, how do we help people in performance reviews so that they understand what biases might present themselves?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah. I. I think you have to be able to standardize the process and really create an objective system. Um, so one thing that we were able to do at Chart Hub, this go around, um, cause we changed our performance review process, [00:05:00] is we introduced, um, the d i B team to sit alongside all of our H ips and our people team to ensure that we were.

Equitable in all of our decisions and that we were fair. Um, so when it came to ratings, when it came to calibrations, um, and even how we’re delivering the message, yeah. D i b was there to say, Hey, I actually think this may be a bias, or maybe. We are looking at this a little differently for this person, but it should be applied the same way to this person.

So having that conversation as we are talking about it real time really helped for us to be able to have a more equitable process. Right now, I know like larger organizations may not be able to do this right. Um, but since we are smaller, we were able to do that and build that into our process. But I, I have seen some of these.

I, I have seen, so I actually worked for like a large tech company before, and um, the reason why I left was because of this exact reason. Um, I was performing, excelling, and then wasn’t getting promoted. But then if I look around me and I see some of my [00:06:00] colleagues that looked differently for me, they were being promoted.

So, um, I think one thing you can do in these instances, Looking at the data, the data’s never gonna lie. You can look at the data and understand what’s actually happening in your organization. Right? And that’s one reason why I love like the chart hop platform. So I can go in, I can see how many, um, folks maybe within our sales sales org were promoted.

Last cycle, were they promoted? Two cycles in a row. Is there any bias when it comes to race, gender, um, sexual orientation and so forth. Um, so that way we can see if there’s any trends, if there’s any bias in our process, in our thinking, and maybe we aren’t amplifying the voices and the people that actually needs to be, um, elevated in that

William Tincup: moment.

Is there, uh, is there a difference, uh, between bias and preference?

Ivori Johnson: That’s a really great

William Tincup: question. Yeah. And I, and I’ll tell you why, how I got there. Because when you were first started telling me the story about, uh, working for a large tech company and looking around at your peers and going, Hey, wait a minute.

I know I’m [00:07:00] performing Overperforming. Look around and, and some of these other people, uh, sim similar to me, uh, uh, skills wise, um, I’m outperforming them. They’re getting promoted. Uh, obviously bias is the backdrop. Got it. Jack. But beyond that, or behind that is all kinds of really nasty stuff. Got it. Okay.

Fair enough. But what if someone just prefers, like, I remember when my wife went into landscape architecture, um, it, a male dominated, uh, kind of a industry. Mm-hmm. She preferred to work with. She didn’t, she didn’t like working with women. I mean that, that, that’s a bias I guess, but it’s also, for her, it was a preference cuz she saw women as being really kind of, especially at that stage in her career, really drama filled.

She’s like, I like men because they’ll just say whatever’s on their mind. It’s like, I don’t wanna stand. I get it. Yeah. Um, and, and [00:08:00] again, so it got me to like, okay, well is there a difference between bias and preference or. Kind of the same. Same.

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, that’s a really great question actually. You have my wheels turning now.

No, I actually, I actually think there is a slight difference, but I think when bias comes.

Right. Unfair to another group or another person. So for instance, I can say like, I prefer women managers over men. For some reason I just connect very well. Right? Um, but I’ve had some male managers where I connect very well with them. But, um, when it came to like a hiring decision, I would never say, I actually think we should hire a woman for this role, right?

Cause I prefer. I prefer to work with a woman as my

William Tincup: manager. So you can have the preference. Mm-hmm. It’s just when you use it in a power, uh, position, either to, uh, acquire talent, promote talent, [00:09:00] you know, uh, evaluate talent, et such a, that’s where the bias actually comes out. And that’s the, that’s the, that’s the thing we, I obviously we’re trying to mitigate.

I don’t know. And I, I would love to get your take on this. Um, I don’t know if we ever get to a point where we. I’ve struggled with this, by the way, so please crush, crush my dreams. If, if you, if you can, uh, I don’t know if we ever get to a point where there are no biases. Mm-hmm. Like we just kind of reach the utopian place where there are no biases.

I think it’s, we, it’s a game of, of getting less and less and more educated, less more training and less and less and less. But I, I think there’s always gonna be biases. But now again, that’s me and. I can be rather cynical. So do you do, do you, do you believe there’s a world where we have no biases?

Ivori Johnson: I, I don’t think we’re there yet.

I think, oh no, I, yeah, we’re definitely not there yet. We’re not,[00:10:00]

I don’t, I don’t think so. I think we will always have a bias. I went to Hampton University, right. And if I meet someone that, that went to my Almog mater, I’m automatically gonna have a bias there because I had that connection to something. Right? Right. But I have to be aware of those things to say, okay, I actually do have a bias.

I need to manage that, and how do I do that? So I think, I think the thing that needs to happen is inner work where we are able to become more aware of our biases, manage it, um, and that, and that allows that to sway our decision in any type of.

William Tincup: And then one new biases present themselves. It’s again, kinda like what y’all did in a performance review process sitting next to your peer group.

And I can, I can just imagine kind of how the discussions is, is here’s what I saw, here’s what you see, here’s what I saw, here’s what you saw. Okay. Let’s kind of go back and forth. And that’s all. I mean, it’s training. Yeah. Uh, it’s a really, really cool form of training because they don’t even [00:11:00] know they’re being trained.

It’s just kind of a discuss. Exactly.

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, I think it was, it was very interesting. It was the first time we went through it at chart hop, but it was really eye-opening because you know, everyone wants to be fair. But then right when we, when we say, Hey, we’re actually talking about like this group a little differently than we are about this group.

We need to just be more aware of that. I think the people in the room are like, oh, wow, I didn’t notice that. That’s something I need to be more aware of and Right. I can manage that now actively in this conversation. Um, so it was a really interesting process.

William Tincup: Well, I can also see learning for the D E I I, I say the whole acronym, but the the d e I team as well.

Is that they’re also, it’s not like they’re all knowing. I think that’s one of the, kind of the misconceptions of folks that work in DNI is like, they’ve gotta somehow from the mountaintop know everything. It’s like, mm, no. Uh, or at least that’s my belief. Mm-hmm. Um, they’re learning too. I mean, they might, they might have, uh, had some training or obviously they had training and they have some knowledge, [00:12:00] but they’re, they’re learning as well.

And, and also new biases, new forms of discrimination, et cetera. Yeah. Are presenting themselves as we speak. They’re gonna be. Cock, you know, you know, concocted in labs, you know, as we speak. So it’s like we’re all learning. Uh, the, I folks are focusing out all the time. So they, they, they’re, they’re learning.

It’s much faster. But I can see those conversations in performance reviews. Being great for the, the HR business partners. Anybody in hr? Yeah, anybody of the managers. Like I can see that just being great learning for them to go, wait, wait a minute. I thought that went really well. Oh, wow. Uh, and learning there, but I could also see the D E I team learning.

Yeah. Did you, did you see some of the same things?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, I definitely did. I think that’s a really important call out too. Like bi changes every single day. Oh, yeah. What DI looked like today did not look like this two, three years ago before the pandemic. So, um, [00:13:00] I think DI professionals are continuously learning.

Um, and then I think what’s really magical though is like in these moments we have managers and HR VPs and then even executives that are part of these conversations and then they can walk away with the learning and then become stewards of d e I themselves. Um, so I think that’s really powerful.

William Tincup: Can the, can the rating system itself be biased?

And I, and the reason I’m thinking about this is my oldest son, he’s gonna be applying to college next year. And so there a lot of colleges, I don’t know if you, you’ve dug into this, uh, but a lot of colleges don’t take a c t and s e t scores anymore. Oh. It’s just not even a blank on the application process, which is, you know, I can.

I can see it being as an administrator, an admin, uh, admissions person. I can see it being very easy. You know, back in the day when you could just say an s a T score. Yeah. You had to have 1500. Like if you don’t have 1500 don’t apply. Like, don’t waste your time. Right. Yeah. But I could also [00:14:00] see how those tests being standardized tests being very biased.

Like I get that and I get why we’re not having those. So I’m happy about that. But also I can see the process being much more, uh, fluid for them to then go, okay, well if we don’t have those two kind. Test as to knock people in or out. How do we evaluate talent? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so that got me to the question of, okay, well can a performance review itself, like what we’re reviewing as performance, can it be already laden with bias?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, that’s, that’s a really good question. I did not know that colleges were, um, not, it’s doing SAPs

William Tincup: crazy anymore. It’s crazy good actually. Yeah, especially for my kids. It’s fantastic. But same year at the same time, like I scored really well on my s A t and I’m like, but I did, I did horribly in school.

Yeah. So like I was one of those kids that if we’re [00:15:00] looking at grades, I’m gonna get slammed if we’re gonna get a test. Oh my god. I could have Harvard done. Yeah. You know, but, uh, but anyhow, go ahead. Yeah,

Ivori Johnson: I think, um, I think the rating system can be biased, but I think it’s based on how it’s built. So if it’s built to be very vague, then that’s where the Predictivity becomes, um, begins to come in where, um, folks can say, They can speak to more things and it’s not just objective.

Either they did it or they did not do it right. And if they did not do it, they don’t deserve this rating. If they did it, then yes. Um, so I think you really need to make sure that your ratings are as simple, clear cut as possible so that way you can say, Yes, this person did this. They deserve this rating based on this.

Um, however, if it’s, if it’s very open for interpretation, then there will be bias that seeks into, seeps into that, um, which I’ve seen at many different companies. And I think, um, there are companies that their performance [00:16:00] process works for them. Their performance rating system works for them, and then some are still struggling.

So I think we’re all just trying to learn what works.

William Tincup: So examples of this that you’re saying, and I’ll give you a couple for the audience, it’s like, works well with others. Okay. Uh, seems to be rather vague and again mm-hmm. Rather subjective in nature. Um, was under budget on all projects seems to be relatively straightforward.

You either, either are or aren’t. Now. There might be reasons for that, but, but you either are under budget, you aren’t like, is that, is that the type of stuff that you’re thinking?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, definitely. So like one thing that we do at Chart Hop is we actually build, um, all of your performance goals by okr. So, mm-hmm.

Like, for instance, one of mine could be to increase representation at the company by X percent. So it’s either I did it or I did not do it. Um, but if I say, um, um, ensure that, Ensuring that we’re creating an [00:17:00] inclusive culture that could be very open for interpretation. Right. Um, I can say I did it, um, but maybe I didn’t do it as effectively, but I did it right.

Um, right. So I think, I think you have to be very, very clear when it comes to writing your performance goals. So having a, having a structure and guidelines on what does that look like when, when, when your teams are, um, goal setting. And then when it comes to the review, Hey, did they do it or not? And we can add, um, some details around what they did and, and, um, to speak to it.

But, um, I think, I think if it’s, if it’s very vague, Then that’s where biases, then you see some people that, um, maybe are favored over others or maybe come from different backgrounds and others, you see them being elevated, um, versus other groups. And that’s, and that’s where you start to see inequities in the process.

William Tincup: So with OKRs and with, with goals in particular, it’s what’s the, what’s in your mind? What’s the employee’s? In either setting [00:18:00] or confirming. Cuz you know, again, here’s another place that bias can, can kind of play. If I set a goal, that’s a stretch goal, but it’s, you know, it’s unattainable is what it is. I call it a stretch goal, but really it’s unattainable.

Well, there’s, that’s bias. If I set a a goal for someone that’s that you could just basically step over it and it’s gonna be easy for you. That’s not a stretch. So even in in setting goals, you can kind of see bias kind of present itself. So how, how do we check what’s the checks and balances? And really what I’m thinking about is what’s the role for employees to participate in goal setting?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, that’s a really great question. Um, one, one thing that I’ve seen done very well is, um, you have the executive team, right? They set the company OKRs. Mm-hmm. So what does that look like for the organization? What are those key performance indicators? And then that begins to get rolled down so the executive go to their teams.

They build out the team OKRs and [00:19:00] KPIs, and then we look at those individual teams and then we continue to build down. So that way, um, it all rolls up into one. Um, so I think if you have that approach, then, then you’re able to see someone’s OKRs is, is affecting the, the bigger picture. Um, and you can, it, it automatically rolls into the overarching goal.

Um, additionally I think, I think when it comes to like the stress goals, one thing that we do, Chart hop is we allow folks to set a good goal. So this is, this is exactly what you have to do. If you do it, you met our expectations. Um, but if you exceed that, then you exceeded our expectations and that’s where you can move up and down in that, in that, um, rating indicator as well.

So they, from our hiring perspective, but we were hiring a hundred people and then the goal was 20% of that, that pool be from underrepresented, um, back. And we hit that goal, great. We met the expectations that we set. But if we exceeded that and [00:20:00] maybe that goal was 35% and we exceeded that, then maybe that rating should be exceeded expectations.

So, um, I think being able to take, if each team has a goal that rolls up to the, the bigger picture, um, and is aligned to the overall company goals, that’s where you’ll be able to see more consistency. Um, and then just being able to spell out. The good looks like, and then what that stretch looks like. Um, and if there’s somewhere in, if it’s somewhere in between, then that’s a conversation that needs to be had.

But I think being able to, um, spell that out really helps.

William Tincup: So what if in this scenario, and again, we can go back to the time, uh, recent time when you, you sat in on performance reviews? Yeah. And you go through a, you go through kind of a, Hmm, uh, one of the, do y’all do it every six months, three months annually.

Not to dig too far into your business, but just, uh, how often, how frequently do y’all do your performance reviews?

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, that’s a great question. So we do, um, two [00:21:00] formal performance reviews twice a year. However, we do check-ins twice a year too. So every quarter, We are having a conversation with our employees.

Um, so like we’re getting ready to go into one in February and that will be a formal, um, performance review where there will be merit increases and promotions in the next quarter will be a check-in with your manager saying like, Hey, this is how you’re doing this, this, um, this quarter. Here’s what you need to do to possibly get promoted next cycle.

Um, so that’s kind of how we built out our process. Right.

William Tincup: So as you go through a cycle like. And, uh, and again, you’re helping people kind of go through and see what they see, et cetera. What happens when, uh, everyone that you think that, you know, obviously you go through performance reviews with the best intentions, and let’s say we’re trying to kind of minimize biases, et cetera, but just on the outcomes.

For whatever reason, it just, it just didn’t play out like the, you, [00:22:00] like we all wanted it to and, and let’s just say that I’ll just use all white male. Yeah, all white men got, got great performance reviews. Everyone that wasn’t a white man didn’t, and for no, everything was objective. Everybody, you know, all that stuff went according to plan.

Just the outcome didn’t go according to plan, so to speak. What do you do in that situation? Yeah, that’s a really great question. The system wasn’t broken. We mm-hmm. In this particular one time, in this particular situation, the system wasn’t, didn’t fail us. Mm-hmm. It just played out the outcomes. Just the optics of the outcomes didn’t look great.

Ivori Johnson: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think, um, in that, The, the, the system isn’t broken. However, there may be some disparities in other areas if it’s recruiting, team representation, even product [00:23:00] distribution, right? So a project distribution. So if, if there’s a, if there’s a high profile project that maybe someones to work with the ceo, um, then, and they, and they, and they do it, but it’s given to a white man or a black man, or a black woman, or a Latinx woman.

Then that person is going to be elevated. So I think there could be disparities in other places if it’s, um, like your, your role, um, the scope of your role also hiring. So does, does that team, um, is that team currently and 95% white men, um, what does that team look like? Um, what does that organization look like?

Um, one thing I’ve seen is like a lot of startups do look majority, um, White males, um, and not a lot of, um, representation from marginalized groups. So I think that’s where we have to address, like, okay, our set, our system isn’t broken. However, we, there’s something else where we’re failing in our, in our process.

[00:24:00] Somewhere in its evolution of the employee life cycle, something is failing, if it’s recruiting, if it’s. The manager themselves, um, or the, the scope of the roles are even leveling. There’s something wrong. Um, so one thing that we do at Chart Hop, which I introduced is we do a quarterly d e i data review.

So I meet with every single executive and go through the health of their organization from a D I B perspective, and we go through every piece of the employee life cycle, from hiring, from team representation to attri. Um, to employee grievances performance. So we tackle all pieces of that from a representation and d e I standpoint.

Um, and I think if you’re able to have a constant look at what’s going on in that org, then you’ll be able to see what the issues are, solve for them, and then you’ll eventually see, um, when you get to that system within the performance review process, you’ll be able to. That you are promoting, um, more equitable groups, right?

That you are seeing, um, fair [00:25:00] distribution of ratings. Um, so I think that’s one tactic that, that companies can take

William Tincup: as well. Yeah, it’s, it’s, I I love the, I love the outlook. It’s like, okay, well, you know, if this played out and we did our best, it’s it, then it’s happening somewhere else. Yeah, we know this.

It’s happening somewhere else. This one played out. Uh, fine, fair. Good. Okay. Moving on. Somewhere else in the organization, we can go and, and again, we’re on the hunt to find biases. Wherever they may lay then that’s great. So this one played out and, uh, hope it’s different next time. Um, but again, there’s, there’s buy somewhere else.

We just gotta look for it. Yeah. Uh, two questions left. One is, is questions employees should ask. Either leading up to performance reviews during a performance review, after performance reviews. Like what’s to empower, especially marginalized folks, but really anybody. Yeah. Uh, what, what should they, [00:26:00] what, you know, especially for people the first time they do have had a performance review.

Uh, and I’m thinking, my niece at Deloitte right now, it’s like, God only knows what her performance first performance review will be like. I’m, I’m sure it’ll be great, but mm-hmm. You know, I can remember my first performance review and it didn’t go that well. Yeah. Mostly because I wasn’t

Ivori Johnson: ready. Yeah. That’s a really great question.

Um, one thing I see is that, um, people from, um, underrepresented communities, they just don’t know what to ask. They don’t know what to do. Right. Um, so it’s, it’s, it’s really like a learning curve. You go through it and then you learn. Um, you’re up for the battle next time. But I think, um, some things that folks can do is, it starts when you start a new cycle or you start a new job, is ask what the expectations of you are.

What does that, what does that look like from a performance perspective? So, um, what are some of your goals? Really write that out with your manager. [00:27:00] Um, so that way you know what you have to do to be able to. Get a good rating or get promoted or get to the next level. Or if it’s just, Hey, I, I’m in this role now, but I wanna shift over here.

What is it gonna take for me to get there? You really need to work with your manager to be able to really build that out so that way you’re, when you go into performance reviews, you know what was expected of you, you know, either you did it or you didn’t. Um, and you’re able to speak to that. Um, so set the expectations first.

I think two is continuously have conversations about your performance in your one-on-ones. So don’t wait until, um, your, your six month review or your yearly review, or if you do quarterly. The quarterly reviews. To have the conversation push or, um, the conversation happen every week during your one-on-ones, so that way you know, how you are trending towards either being promoted or getting a good rating or getting more money, right?

Um, so I think those are some things to think about before you go into the process. Um, and I think right before the [00:28:00] process, the performance process kicked off, have a meeting with your manager to say, Hey, I know where we’re going through, we’re going into this process. I just wanna calibrate between us on what this rating would look like.

I wanna be able to share with you what I’ve actually done and how I performed, and see if that aligns well with what you’re thinking from a rate rating perspective. And additionally, if I’m up for promotion, I think you have to advocate for yourself. But if you go into that conversation that way prior to it, then you will not feel like you.

You were left in the dark or that you didn’t have a say in, in, in what your performance was. You have to advocate for yourself. So that would start that, um, I would start that process well before you gonna go into the process. Um, and I think that could really set your for success. And then after the performance review, you get your rating.

You’re either promoted or you’re not. You get a merit increase. Um, you get, you get the rating that you want or you don’t. Ask for understanding. Ask for clarification. You wanna understand why they [00:29:00] came to that, that decision, and what you have to do next time to either get promoted or get the rating you’d like.

Um, and that can really set you up for success. Yeah,

William Tincup: no, I think that’s regardless of the outcome is that you always ask, even if you got a huge raise and a promotion and this, that, and the other, you ask mm-hmm. How’d that happen? Tell me a little bit about what, what was your decision tree? What did you, what’d you go into?

What went into that? What made you make that decision? Now, if that’s a negative thing, uh, and you didn’t get through merit or increase, you didn’t get the promotion, you, you asked the same questions. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I, I think that that’s, again, I. You, you, you went over it really quickly, but I wanna make sure we stop down for the audience, is that.

You know, marginalized folks, um, if they don’t have their first, let’s say their first review, and it just goes just not well. Okay, got it. That actually puts them behind. Yeah. On their path. Just that first one. Mm-hmm. It’s just like hiring a woman for $20,000 less. [00:30:00] Then you hire a man, she’s $20,000 at the.

From the jump, from the get go, she’s already $20,000, uh, behind someone. Mm-hmm. And so think of the, think of their interview, think of their, their performance reviews in much the same way. If their first one’s mulligan, but other people’s aren’t. Because they’re more prepared or whatever else. Um, I, I think there’s, yeah.

Another way that biases kind of, kind of finds itself Yeah. To the top is that just like, okay, if again, we’ll use just white men as just an example, they, they, they know what’s ready. They know what the review’s gonna be about. They’ve already talked to their per whatever, if they’re prepared. Let’s just leave it though, at that one.

Yeah. And marginalized folks go into their first one as a learning event and they’re not prepared. Okay. All right. Well, if we can fix that, then we give people more of an equal playing field and then whatever the outcome is, the outcome is. Yeah. Um, but I think, you know, something else that you touched on that I thought was [00:31:00] beautiful is that you, you don’t, Just ask your, the people you work with and your, your, your boss in particular, how am I doing?

Or, or, you know, kind of vague type questions because the, how am I doing is like, well, you’re doing great. Yeah. You know, I like working with you. You’re doing great. You have a, how am I doing as it relates to the goals that you set forth in the last performance reviewer when you hired me, et cetera. Like, how am I doing on goal, or however, there’s a better, better way to phrase that, but, Being more specific and being more, uh, diligent in the questions that you ask people, not just looking for affirmation.


Ivori Johnson: that’s a really good question. I think that’s a really good point. Um, I think, I think people really have to be able to advocate for themselves and just ask those hard questions. Right. And I think, I think we wanna know how we’re doing. Maybe we don’t, we don’t know the right question to ask to be able to get, get that information from folks.

Right. One thing that I do is every time I go into a [00:32:00] project meeting, it doesn’t have to be my manager, could be a peer that I work with. At the end, I ask them, Hey, I just wanna, I wanna pressure check here. How are you feeling about this project? How is it going? Is there anything that I could be doing to, um, Provide more clarification or get this over, over the finish line more effectively.

Any feedback that you have for me, I would love to take it. Um, and that opens the conversation up to feedback. And I try to end every single meeting that I have with someone if it’s, if, if it’s possible with asking for feedback. That way you’re continuously getting feedback from folks in order to become better.

Um, so I would, I would definitely say continuously.

William Tincup: Well, what I, I love about that, and, and we’ll, we’ll wrap after this, is it also puts the, we, we talked about employees and what they should be asking, but also the onus is on the, the boss or the team to also provide that feedback, uh, continuously. You know, like, Hey, this is what I see from you, you know, week in and week out, day in and day out.

[00:33:00] Median meet out. It’s like, okay, this is what I’m seeing. This is where the’re trending right now. Here’s some things you could work on. Like that’s actually would be helpful for, you know, bosses and peers to also be giving that feedback so that again, you’re not in the dark. That whole idea is to not go into a performance review.

Clueless. Yeah. Uh, and in the dark. So ivory, this has been absolutely wonderful. I could talk to you all day, so thank you so much for carving. I know I’m busy. You are. But thank you so much for carving out time for us in the. No,

Ivori Johnson: of course. Thank you so much for having me. I’m, it was definitely a pleasure speaking with you as well.

You definitely had my wheels conversation.

William Tincup: Well, very good, and thanks again everyone listening to Recruiting Daily podcast. Until next time.

The RecruitingDaily Podcast

William Tincup

William is the President & Editor-at-Large of RecruitingDaily. At the intersection of HR and technology, he’s a writer, speaker, advisor, consultant, investor, storyteller & teacher. He's been writing about HR and Recruiting related issues for longer than he cares to disclose. William serves on the Board of Advisors / Board of Directors for 20+ HR technology startups. William is a graduate of the University of Alabama at Birmingham with a BA in Art History. He also earned an MA in American Indian Studies from the University of Arizona and an MBA from Case Western Reserve University.


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